Feedback requested on proposed Q3 2022 Governance Measures

How do we reward effective allocators of resources? Why not make it an opt-in layered reward competition for the best returns over statistically diversified holdings(I’m not suggesting whatever that suitable standard of diversified holdings may be)? 7m or any arbitrary amount spread out the top 10 entities participating in defi? could be an individual, could be a collective, but it incentives people to come compete to be successful investing in the algo economy responsibly on equal playing field.

Answering the LP question specifically could be harder but I guess something similar but rewarding top sized liquidity providers rather than defi performers. Not sure if compliance would be an issue there or if it’d have to involve the kyc elephant in the room but seems like an idea worth exploring and potentially proposing as an alternative to the other lines of incentivizing.

As with any of the methods of incentivizing though I’m a little concerned with the activity becoming dependent on it in the long run. In the idea of a competition, maybe the algo rewards could be phased out to an NFT for the top performers eventually or just the recognition of the status as a top performer over an arbitrary amount of time on a leaderboard.

1 Like

If our objective is to bring DeFi votes into governance as key ecosystem players then I believe systems such as those of liquid governance will be better suited for it than a system of auditing LPs that will always bring with it more complexity and more controversy as some LPs/ASAs will have to arbitrarily be cut off. Right now a little under 10% of the governance committed is in a liquid governance product, so the alternatives within DeFi are there, for those who want to cast a vote whilst maintaining liquidity to participate on DeFi at a relatively low cost. We can even build tools (such as decentralised aggregators and stable swaps protocols) to address potential liquidity fragmentation and lower the barrier to governance even more with minimum development efforts. So if DeFi users want a vote, they have an avenue for it.

Now, if we want to give a voice to DeFi players (and other community members) I believe it is through opening up of governance proposals (I’m reminded of things like https://cardanocataly.st/ or other DAO-like forums such as those on Snapshot , with Gitcoin being a personal favourite of mine), that we achieve this. We can even have the oversight of the foundation first and then aim to give the role to xGovs and other ecosystem leaders over-time. I believe in the long-run these type of measures will create easier to track KPIs than the current method, where it’s extremely hard to separate who participates out of interest and who’s just seeking yield/rewards.

Textually, my main worry with both proposals is that we’re off-setting risk without necessarily benefiting from it (ie subsidising the costs, but not taxing the profits) and that we might not generate the engagement needed for an educated governance which I believe should be our long-term goal. But instead reinforce the belief that governance is just this yield you can passively get for participating on Algorand. It’s hard to reach a balance of engagement without overwhelming users, but that’s what we should aim for, since at the moment I feel most participation is yield motivated as opposed to decision-making motivated. But of course, I’m just going off of a hunch.

1 Like

I’m happy to see that more and more the question arises about what to do with node runners. The way I see, right now it is possible to participate in DeFi and Governance and it is possible to participate in Governance and run a node. It is not possible however to run a node and partecipate in DeFi.

I do run a node (exclusively because I wanted to try something new for me and I had fun setting it up), and while I disagree that incentives - even small ones - are not necessary, right now Governance is a very nice way for me to get rewards for running my node. It is very clean, my ALGO stays in my wallet and gives me both voting rights and passive incoming while at the same time participating in consensus.

So when I see that it is proposed to reduce the amount given for governance in order to incentivize something that I cannot participate into (or better, I don’t want because I want my ALGOs to stay in my node account to participate in consensus) I’m clearly against it, since even if I wanted I could not run a node effectively if my ALGOs are not in my wallet but in some DeFi protocol. Also, I want to give props to FolksFinance, AlgoFI and GARD (and whoever else figured out how to allow users to partecipate in both DeFi and Governance) while at the same time asking if thanks to their progress in this regard this proposal might already be obsolete?

Regarding vote 2 I actually like the idea, in the sense that those are ALGO that are committed to LPs and also are helping the ecosystem - so any implementation to grant those tokens eligibility is welcome.

I want to end that I like the much more improved exposition of the topics put to vote, as well as their potential implementation. This time I feel like I really can understand what I will vote upon. I hope that all those info will be available also on the voting page itself.

1 Like

It is 100% possible to participate in governance, defi and node running consensus with a single algo token. You can use AlgoFi’s vault technology to participate in governance, borrow off of that to participate in DeFi, and get a participation key from your vault to have that Algo partake in consensus.

2 Likes

I didn’t think about that. Still tough I don’t like having debt if I really don’t have too, but at this point the problem lies in me and is not system wide.

i wouldn’t really look at it like debt in the traditional sense though. If you vault 100k algos, and borrow 50k algo to use in defi, you’re at no risk of liquidation because the borrow and supply are the same token…and assuming you are doing it correctly, you should be able to get a higher yield supplying the 50k algo you borrow, than the loan rate youre paying on it.

1 Like

That is perfectly said and thank you. Proper education and learning how to think with a long-term mindset is fundamental for long-term success.

If you are an ALGO owner for the Governance rewards, then you own ALGO for the wrong reason. I own ALGO because I am vested in the Algorand ecosystem’s long-term growth. Distributing ALGO for Governance participation does not create value for the Algorand ecosystem. In fact, it has the opposite long-term effect. Distributing ALGO for Governance participation is a waste of capital because most of that capital will go to passive holders that are simply looking to hold ALGO until they sell it.

The lion’s share of the Governance rewards would end up being distributed to the whales. There is currently ~3.8B ALGO committed to Governance. 1B ALGO by accounts that hold >50M ALGO, 3.1B by accounts that hold ALGO in the 10M-50M ALGO range, and 303M ALGO by accounts that hold ALGO in the 1M-10M ALGO range. In other words, ~63M ALGO will be distributed to accounts holding > 1M ALGO, and ~7.5 M ALGO to the rest of the Governors. Between AlgoFI and Folks Finance, there are ~299M ALGO committed to ALGO DeFi. That is an interesting number because ~400M ALGO was committed to Governance by retail (account < 1M ALGO). I haven’t done the on-chain analysis, but I would bet that the majority of folks in Governance DeFi are retail that are taking on significantly higher risk in DeFi.

If DeFi incentives were 10X more by allocating all Governance rewards to DeFi incentives then think about how much impact that would have on ecosystem growth. In addition, ALGO rewards would be distributed to the DeFi users who will most likely re-deploy those ALGOs into the ecosystem - not only to provide liquidity but that capital will also flow into NFT projects and into new projects through incubator/launchpad platforms Algorand ecosystem growth would be explosive and would create much more value for ALGO owners than simply receiving Governance rewards. This is a no-brainer for any brain with a long-term mindset.

1 Like

Right - that’s why I propose reallocating all Governance rewards to ecosystem growth.

Totally agree. Governance rewards are a big problem. I propose eliminating all Governance rewards. I know that is a tough sell because most will see it as a radical change, but it’s the way it should have been done in the first place and will deliver a superior ROI on ecosystem growth. That being said, we can’t afford to not do anything again. The proposal should not be to vote on whether we should reduce Governance rewards, it should be to vote on how much to reduce Governance ALGO rewards and reallocated to DeFi. I say eliminate all Governance ALGO rewards, but I’ll settle for a 90% reduction.

Multiple staking options is the key, not all in governance or all in defi. You have Algo investors who arent into either and shouldnt be force to just those options.
Its like saying if you invest in Apple , you need to have an iphone or pay for an Apple TV subscription.
I get it, you want more investors involved in the blockchain but you have to be realistic everyone isnt a fan of governance or want to take on risk with defi when they are already taking on risk just by investing in crypto.

Multiple staking options is the way. (Which ive already listed before).

At the end of the day, ALGO is still an asset. You want appreciation, I want appreciation, we want appreciation, Algorand wants appreciation. Anyone saying they dont is lying.

Anyone investing in ALGO is playing a part, either by being an investor or by being a node runner, degen or governor.

2 Likes

Such thinking is the main reason why crypto in general has not yet flourished the way it could, and why there have been so many scammed “investors”.
The purpose of acquiring cryptocurrencies is to ensure security and unconfiscatability of value as well as its trustless and efficient transacting.
As long as even the people currently involved in crypto do not understand this, there will be no mass adoption and correct regulation of the space. But the space will get there eventually through learning and education.

I disagree with this premise. Plenty of crypto projects are funded by investors who want ROI which aids in growth of ecosystems. What you are describing are speculators who are trying to get rich quick, and another problem aside from my point that I was making above, which is that people are not buying Algorand for fun or out of a sense of charity, they expect to make a profit, no different than any other business investment.

It also is not why you don’t have mass adoption. You don’t have mass adoption because at the end of the day, there are not enough real world use cases for an average joe, that are also fairly easy to execute. To be clear, I am not stating there are none, but it takes time and effort to understand Defi. Most people on the street don’t see what crypto offers other than an investment vehicle. For that to change, Crypto has to become something that solves tangible issues for the average person. I believe that it will, but again it takes time. When I was a kid the internet was similar, for many they didn’t see what the point was in it until they realized “Oh email is great, or I can play with friends who don’t live here” and we got past dial up LOL.

It is not necessary to explicitly incentivize participation in a direct form of governance. Just look at how elections work in the vast majority of countries. I am not aware of any country where (honest) participation in elections would be directly compensated. The incentives are inherent - one participates to help in deciding what is the best for the the future of the country they are apart of since they have a stake there by living there, having their family and friends there, their ancestors, culture, etc. Same notion applies to Algorand and one’s ALGO stake.

If you want large scale participation, yes you do. National elections have inherent incentives because they can have material impacts on my day to day life. What happens here in governance for a crypto token has nowhere near the significance, hence why in my earlier post I stated I did not like analogizing Algorand to a nation. You are correct, most countries don’t compensate for votes, though you could argue political parties do try to give incentives. If we consider elections, oftentimes parties will drive their base by promises of incentives. While no its not a direct payment (well I guess the last stimulus checks kind of were) they do incentivize your vote. And even with this turnout still sucks. With Algorand, or any crypto project, you have nowhere near as much incentive ability, which brings me to the last point.

The reason for this is not the lack of (explicit) incentives but the lack of understanding on the importance of voting. Studies on voter turnout have clearly shown that the most important socioeconomic factor affecting voter turnout is education. Same applies to blockchains - both their governance and running of nodes. Most do not understand why this would benefit them personally, while in reality they are harming themselves the most by not doing so.

I agree with you that a lack of education hurts turnout, but my point was that expecting turnout from a general populace without major incentive does not work. I come from a lower income family, and very few in my family go vote. Some of them are even issue aware, but you know why they don’t? “I have work to do, I have bills to pay, mouths to feed and at the end of the day I can’t take the time when there’s nothing really in it for me”. Now I’d bet if I offered each of them $50 to go vote that day, they would find the time. My original point was that if the goal of governance is overall community participation, there has to be incentive to take the time. Unlike political parties and nations, Algorand does not impact our day to day lives. Additionally no one voting in an election has to lock up an asset for 3 months for the right to vote. If I had to give the government my car to sit in a lot for 3 months just so I could vote I would absolutely want something for it.

3 Likes

Thank you for the response, @Massimo.

I can empathize with them feeling like they effectively have no recourse for representation, and that they bring a different view than the everyday user/holder. That being said, there is already a fair bit of concern about the amount of “sway” that CEXs have in governance. If you add the DeFi protocols, bluntly, why should the rest of us vote at all?

Every vote we’ve had has been about altering governance. Now, we keep rehashing giving extra incentives to PRIVATE businesses. I think there is a lot of risk in putting that much power in the hands of independent businesses (more so with CEXs than the defi, but that ship has sailed). Especially when it seems every vote would result in giving them more power.

Has the Foundation considered that maybe there need to be 2 forms of governance - one for business and one for individuals? Or that we maybe need to figure out a solution in which the fish don’t feel like their views are stifled by the whales? I just feel like there is a better solution that muddying the waters and combining incentivizing defi with governance voting… and I know I’m not alone in that.

Further, while defi is obviously very important, I am a little concerned at the hyper focus on it. It seems that some want to oversimplify the lack of tvl, etc. as being purely an issue of competing with governance. This is just simply not the case. Our ecosystem is growing rapidly, but it is still young and it still has a lack of everyday use cases for the casual user. In my opinion, the issue is much more likely that there just aren’t enough interesting and innovative projects that appeal to your Average Joe. Adoption is what will make things explode, and adoption will only happen when people have options that benefit their everyday lives. Everything else is artificial, and I think governance is really more likely filling a void than it is obstructing progress.

Also, @oysterpack, yes, you’ve reiterated that a few dozen times. I don’t think most share your opinion. I view this as business/investment and as a responsibility - both for myself and for the future of Algorand - and I take it seriously… but it’s not charity.

4 Likes

I recall making a similar point in the last quarterly vote that if the structure results in Defi protocol X making a block vote with its users Algo, there is risk of creating a similar issue. My hope would be that we could instead work around this by having Defi X put the measure to its users, and making its votes pro rata with that.
The primary issue is we have a conflict between goals, and the means of achieving them. What I believe the Foundation is trying to do is create a system where all Algo users can vote in governance. Currently however, this results in most just sitting in a wallet, and providing little else to the network. That is an issue especially because the near risk free rate of governance (less price risk) makes it very hard to incentivize a user to go do other things with Algo. I think what the foundation is shooting for is A. trying to make it so all users can vote in governance without the lockup issue and B. give a boost in rewards to Defi to balance out the risk profile (less risk should = less rewards etc.)
There are other ways to do this, such as limits of algo that can be used for voting in each wallet, killing rewards, etc. but if the goal is to try and keep an idea of 1 Algo = 1 vote, this is probably the best way to maintain that, but still reduce the high governance APR/lockup issue.

I do agree that from a wording perspective, making this a separate grant would have been better, but the end goal I think is the same.

I do agree with this, I am really hoping we are going to move on after this to getting xGov better set up so community proposals can begin. Think this would help solve a lot of issues and at least give people voices and help the foundation out with not having to create everything here.

I would be curious how you would structure that. I feel like 2 separate forms would be logistically challenging, but open to considering it.
As far as feeling like fish, I get it. I feel similarly at times. The best thing we can do though is this right here, and challenging ideas and opinions and hopefully winning people over.

I could not agree more. More real world use cases (and ease of use) are going to be needed. Defi I think is great and has potential for a group of people who love it, but it is not for everyone and is not solely what will make Algorand the king of crypto. I understand the need to rebalance risk/rewards in the space but it should not be the end all/be all here.

1 Like

I think you’re so right and this is one of the core points of the discussion for me. The foundation, IMO, should try to stay out of the market as much as it can, picking winners in Defi and to pick which pools have a “substantial, open, market” is bad.

But advising people to put money into a Defi product that then collapses would be absolutely catastrophic for the reputation of the Foundation and might collapse the whole project. Is this a risk really worth taking to increase TVL a little?

1 Like

In fact Measure 1 can include DEX as well, if something like Measure 2 is implemented and allows DEX to be governors for a term for the Algo part.

2 Likes

We give grants, we have Aeneas… part of the Foundation is to support ecosystem and if something goes wrong in some decentralized project which, among others, got some support, I think it’s not a tragedy. And the support coming from rewards is not selecting projects, that’s the goal of other initiatives. The foundation will remain active, but the reward process will be objective.

2 Likes

Would really appreciate a response to how the Foundation plans to include defi liquidity that is not represented by LP tokens in governance.

Wow. And with this statement alone, you have cemented my decision to never use defi for governance.

This flippant attitude is exactly why people are hesitant to use these protocols. If the Foundation wants to use Governance to try to strongarm people into using defi protocols for governance, and something goes wrong, it is absolutely a tragedy for the people that lose everything because of the foundation and the continued coercion. There is a pervasive callousness to the risk in crypto that is intensely off putting. It is risky, and people need to know that going in, but the all too common reactions to breaches and hacks that result in massive losses for users is generally one something akin to ‘that sucks… go buy more and try again.’ That hurts crypto, and it hurts the ability to draw in everday users. Everyday users cant fathom not caring about people losing all of their money.

4 Likes

There is an increasing number of people who are turning to crypto to protect their savings - long tern - against inflation. These people are risk averse, and they buy an hold because they are hedging their bets against hyperinflation and the daily devaluation of their salaries, their savings. These people couldn’t care less about TVL and we should most certainly reward them for choosing Algorand.

3 Likes

I have spent 20 years in traditional finance, and I can assure you that I have seen more often everyday people lose everything in traditional finance than in crypto. May that be because people in crypto come with more awareness of risk or because tech is not more risky than some traditional contracts. Yes, Defi is risky, but it’s a great application of blockchain tech, and when there are more (aware) users and testing, risk reduces.

1 Like